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E-mail Conversations on Female Ejaculation between Dr. Betty Dodson and Dr. Susan Block

From: "Betty Dodson"
To: "'Dr. Susan Block'"
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: You'll love this

Hey Darling Woman,

I watched your female ejaculation DVD the other day. And damned if Debra didn't make you shoot. You gotta tell me the truth ( entre nous) does it feel sexual or is it just fun? One thing my sharp beady eyes saw was you starting to reach down to do your clit....several times....but then you stopped. CLITTY WAS IGNORED. Debra is so in love with the idea of "vaginal orgasms" and ejaculation it made me wonder if you were just being a good host. And you were very good as always. Brilliant, funny and very engaging. But I gotta tell you watching all that spurting is about as sexy as watching a dog pee on a fire hydrant. Where are you at in all these displays of sacred waters or priestess piss? I promise not to tell anyone. It's just between you, me and the bonobos.
Love ya, BAD

From: Dr. Susan Block
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 5:30 AM
To: Betty Dodson
Subject: Re: You'll love this

Hi Darling BAD,
Yes, squirting feels sexual. But then, if I'm aroused, I think peeing feels sexual. If I'm aroused, a roller coaster ride feels sexual. Squirting can also be not-so-sexual. That is, not terribly orgasmic. It always feels really good (for me), but only sometimes does it coincide with a standard internal orgasm.

You're right, I did touch my clit a few times, and so did Annie. Annie touches her clit a lot, spanks it actually, when she squirts (as Deborah points out, Annie is also spanking her G-spot as well as her clit). I was just touching my clit because it felt good. But Deborah's emphasis was on the G-Spot, and I was *letting* her lead that night, as the expert. In any case, it worked with all of us (though all of us touched our clit, at least a little bit - why not?). But I do find that if I touch my clit a LOT and give myself a nice big regular orgasm, I am less likely to feel like squirting afterwards. Deborah and I talk about this during the salon.

I don't really think there are clitoral orgasms and vaginal orgasms. I'd say there are internal orgasms (that almost always involve some touching of the clit) that reverberate inside of you, and there are external orgasms, where you ejaculate. Mostly, women have internal orgasms, and mostly men have the external kind. But we can both have either, at least occasionally.

I enjoy squirting. But I don't do it a lot. I probably did it more than ever at that show. I've done it more at a few other shows, plus when I'm up on my on my roof where I like to exercise and masturbate. I rarely squirt when I have regular sex with my husband (I "flow") - mainly because we usually have sex in bed and I don't want to get the bed all wet, and it's a pain to put up towels which don't soak it all up anyway. My husband enjoys it, but then, he has no problem falling asleep afterwards in a soaking wet bed. I do. Knowing how much I don't like the mess (you hear me complain about the wet bed a few times on the salon; I don't hide my finicky feelings, though I don't let them get in the way of my enjoyment!), I can imagine that you - who adore simplicity and cleanliness - would find the whole soaking wet mess pretty abhorent. So I'm not surprised you don't particularly like female ejaculation or find it very sexy.

I am surprised you got a copy of the DVD. Did a friend of yours buy it? I haven't started sending out complimentary copies yet (and I would send you one). Any case, it's a very popular subject right now. Thousands of men and women ask me about it, and want to learn how to do it. I'm no expert in it, but Deborah is, and I feel that the salon we did that night really teaches the viewer how to do it better than any other video I've seen on the subject (am I modest or what?). The DVD, with no publicity except my little emails, is selling extremely well. I must admit that sales make me wet. They don't make me squirt though. That takes a little more effort.

Btw, all of the above is not confidential. I believe that the chemical content of female ejaculate is substantially different than pee (it's looks and smells different and feels different coming out), and I believe that every woman can squirt. But I don't believe that every woman wants to squirt, or that every man enjoys it, or that anybody has to do it or put up with it at all. But for some women, and their men, it is a beautiful, very sexual thing, Holy Water indeed.

Right now, I'm editing a show called "Weimar Love: Hot Sex in Pre-Nazi Berlin" and I'm working with one of my editors on "Blonde Island." We just did a Bravo-style documentary on one of our erotic artists, Col. Jiraryr H. Zorthian. No squirting in any of them. I like variety. But the Squirting is the best seller.

miss you,

From: Betty Dodson
To: Dr. Susan Block
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:01 PM
Subject: RE: You'll love this

Hi Sweetums,
Thanks for your intelligent feedback. Yes, I am struggling to understand an aspect of female sexuality (ejaculation) that appears to partially or completly sacrifice our pleasure to please men. The entertainment value of spurting is unquestionable ie it's popularity. I understand why the rush by so many men (and women) wanting us to ejaculate because it demonstrates a sexual conclusion or outcome to the mysterious inner workings of our sexuality like, "I made her come really big!" All this when so many women are not coming with fucking or at all creates frustration here in BADland.

Feeling sexual or aroused and having an orgasm seems quite different in my mind. A roller coaster ride is an exciting adrenilin rush but not the sweet release of an orgasm. I know I'm orgasmcentric or whatever. But working 40 years with nonorgasmic women has pissed me off with how often the clitoris is left out! Granny's about to go on a rant here so I'll stop just in time.

Eric my darling partner got your DVD. When I learn how to navigate the damn things I'll watch it again. Like most guys, he loves the idea of female ejaculation and he said even when he has detected the slight smell of urine, it doesnt' bother him one bit. Next time I'll tell him he can get a comp copy.

Just so you know, I think you are one smart woman. And yes, I agree. Making money gets me wet too and sometimes I laugh so hard I pee in my pants. Guess I'll have to say, "I ejaculate in my pants."

Love you, BADly

From: Dr. Susan Block
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 3:24 AM
To: Betty Dodson
Subject: Re: You'll love this

Hey BAD Grrrl,

Well, you know I think you're a darling and a genius. And if I have to choose, I'll take my regular internal squirtless orgasms over female ejaculation anyday. And I will always be grateful to you and your book for teaching me to have my first orgasm, which is my favorite kind of orgasm (of which I have at least one a day, pretty much). BUT I don't agree that most women are squirting just to please men. Many women I've spoken with (including two callers on the Squirt Salon) ejaculate quite naturally, and some of their men don't like it or can't deal with it. They are definitely not doing it to please men.

About half the women who write or talk to me about squirting want to learn how to do it (to please themselves or their men or women lovers). But the other half squirts easily and naturally, and they just want some affirmation, or some ideas for how to help their lovers accept it.

I certainly believe that pre-orgasmic women should learn to have regular orgasms before they even attempt squirting, unless they're already squirting naturally.

I do agree with you that there are some guys that like squirting just because it is visual *proof* that a woman is having a *good time.* Guys like this tend to like oversized fake tits, and have trouble with intimacy. God and Goddess bless their tormented, confused souls; some of these guys are my best sex therapy clients.

Oh, and just for the record, I have had orgasms on roller coasters (while being fingered by my partner). I've also peed in them. But I've always been a little nutz.

much love,
Sweetum Susan

From: Betty Dodson
To: Dr. Susan Block
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: Continued

Suzie Baby Doll,

I love this dialogue. Maybe I'll be less opinionated. Thanks for reminding me there are men who don't like it. I've even had a few women writing in to ask how can they stop spurting because they hate the big wet spot.

I've had my finger inside several women who had no PC muscle tone and they were definately peeing while calling it "ejaculating." I've only been with two women that spurted automatically without consciously bearing down or pushing out . The PC muscle contracted several times as they came emitting a thin spray. It was cute, not copious liquid that soaked thru the mattress.

I'd love to see some numbers crunched on the percentage of women who spurt naturally and the ones that "learn" how. The lastest thing I heard is that we all ejaculate. It's just that some of us have rhetrograde ejaculations that go into the bladder. They've actually tested women's urine after coming and it has a higher level of prostatic whatever in it. Anyway, as I told Dr. Perry (Whipple & Perry) in our email exchange, I continue to be the voice of women who don't ejaculate and have no desire to learn.

Here's a section of Perry's response:

"In our original presentations, Bev and I insisted that we were talking about a small amount of fluid, consistent with what could be produced by the Skene's glands, which in our work with Ed Belzer proved to contain prostatic acid phosphatase (similar to the secretions of the male prostate.) In general, we refer to "a teaspoon or two", and never more. That seemed to stick, until Shannon Bell started talking about large quantities, at the World Association of Sexology in Caracas in 1989. She later convinced Deborah Sundahl in the techniques described in the 1991 film "How to (female) ejaculate".

Suddenly it became a feminist issue to be able to "squirt" more than any male! The amount of fluid produced was far beyond the capacity of the paraurethral glands and could ONLY come from the bladder. Around 1995 Gary Schubach did his very valuable research, in which women were catheterized and produced large volumes of fluid which are best described as extremely dilute urine, certainly not "regular" urine. In response to Gary's Research, I wrote what is called "The Beer Piss Hypothesis", which claims that large-volume "ejaculations" are produced in a sexually stimulated kidney and pass through the bladder.

That takes care of large volume ejaculations and regular (teaspoon) ejaculations, but what about those who produce NO fluid? For years I thought that such women just had relatively small Skene's glands, so the amount of fluid was hard to see or non-existent. However, all that has changed since Paco Cabello's research (See my website). He showed that women who don't ejaculate externally seem to have "retrograde" ejaculations, which he proved by demonstrating that they had much higher levels of prostatic fluids in the post-orgasmic voidings compared with pre-orgasmic urine concentrations."

Stay hot and Nutz. Love you, BAD

Dr. Suzy & Dr. Betty . Photo: Dr. Michael Perry

From: Dr. Susan Block
To: Betty Dodson
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: Continued

Hey BAD Girl,

Please don't be "less opinionated." I love that about you. Most people are so anxious about what other people think, so I have no idea where they stand on any subject. You are refreshingly candid about what you don't like. So when you tell me you like something, I know you're really salivating.

I'm enjoying our little "dialogue" too. In fact, I'm thinking of printing some of it on my site (and including a link to your site, of course). Hey, you've seen the Vagina Monologues. Now here's...The Squirting Dialogues! Let me know if there's anything you've written in these emails that you would NOT want published.

To continue...It makes sense to me that every woman has the anatomical ability to ejaculate. That is, I don't think it's an odd *skill* like being able to wiggle your ears or do back flips. But many, or probably most, women don't want to ejaculate. I'd even guess that evolution has favored women who naturally *inhibit* their squirting capabilities, because of all the various downsides, ie., it's messy, many men don't like it, & the fact that it probably pushes a lot of sperm away from the egg, especially if the female ejaculation happens simultaneously or just after the male ejaculation.

That said, just because evolution does not seem to have favored women who squirt easily and naturally, doesn't mean that those of us who enjoy it shouldn't continue to enjoy it, and those of us who naturally *inhibit* our ejaculate shouldn't learn how to relax, stimulate the G-spot (or whatever it takes) and let 'er gush -- if we feel like it.

I'm no Squirting Missionary. I don't think every woman should squirt, especially if she, like you, is perfectly happy with her orgasms as they are, and finds it distasteful. But there are many, many women who want to *learn* to squirt, and some of their lovers want to help them, and why shouldn't they get this information? As you could see on our DVD, Deborah's method does work. At least, it worked with me, and I am not a *natural.*

I've also corresponded with Dr. Perry, both regarding *where it comes from* and what it's made out of. But questions have these tentative answers, but seem to need further study. And then there's your question: What percentage of women squirt naturally, and what percentage need to learn? These would all be interesting studies. Unfortunately, with the current administration, there are barely funds to educate people about reproduction and contraception (and masturbation!), let alone study female ejaculation.

Oh, and speaking of masturbation, it's fitting that you're the first person I'm emailing in the month of MAY...Happy Masturbation Month!

xo Suzy (with a "y," darling)

From: Betty Dodson
To: Dr. Susan Block
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 2:26 PM
Subject: RE: Squirting Continued

SuzY Darling,

How adorable of you to support my tight logical Virgo mind. I promise I'll continue to be the voice for women who do NOT squirt and have NO desire to learn. As for our Squirting Dialogues go for it. But please, no reference to the fuckless Vagina Monologues. Let me know so I can post us on my website.

Interesting idea evolution supporting non-squirters for the purpose of procreation. One thought I had several years ago was that the male prostate gland creates an alkaline fluid to help perserve billions of little spermies squirming toward one egg. So if the female prostate-like glandular tissue used it's own alkaline juice, it too would promote the health of the sperm. Of course those large volumn fountains of squirts would wash the little buggers right out. Hmmmm.

The fact that we are not clear about what the squirting consists of is the fly in the ejaculate for me. How come we don't know? A friend of mine in the "scene" loves to play with catheters. When her girlfriend puts a thin tube into her urethra, the minute it touches the bladder she releases a clear urine that's collected in a small glass. It was cute, especially since she was covered from head to toe in black latex. Well, that got me wondering if all that jostling of the bladder during g-spot banging might cause a similar response.

But even more curious is figuring out the glands with all the different names. Between the Ciba Collection of Medical Illustrations by Frank Netter and A New View of a Women’s Body, I struggle to understand our anatomy. I’m pathetically dyslexic when it comes to remembering words and getting labels straight.

Ciba does all this medical jargon which is nearly impossible to understand and I’ve simplified the following: “The vestibule becomes apparent on separation of the labia. Within it are found the hymen, the vaginal orifice, the urethral meatus and the opening of Skene’s and Bartholin’s ducts. The external urethral meatus is situated 2 cm. below the clitoris. The openings of the Skene’s ducts lie on either side of the urethral opening. Bartholin’s are the deeply situated vulvovaginal glands with ducts on each side of the vestibule, in the grove between the hymen and the labia minora, at about the junction of the middle and posterior thirds of the lateral boundary of the vaginal orifice.”

A New View of a Woman’s Body clarifies and also confuses by calling everything the clitoris and dropping names based upon male doctors. I quote the following: “There are two sets of glands within the clitoris which have ducts that open to the outside. One set are minute and their specific function, if any, is unknown. The other, the vulvovaginal glands, do secrete a few drops of fluid during sexual arousal. Usually, a woman becomes aware of the vulvovaginal glands only if they become infected and enlarged.”

Here’s my version. The Paraurethral glands (Skene’s) have ducts on either side of the urethral opening. The Vulvovaginal glands (Bartholin’s kidney bean-shaped glands) are positioned internally. Two tiny ducts open on either side of the vaginal vestibule in a crease of the inner labia toward the bottom.

The New View book says women ejaculate from the Paraurethral (Skene's) gland alongside the urethral opening. I wouldn’t be surprised if both glands along with vaginal secretions (sweating) plus a little fresh urine from the bladder were all involved in voluminous squirtings. What fascinate me is how none of the supporters of large volume female ejaculation never make an analogy to our tear ducts that are quite small yet we know that some people can cry a river, or it seems.

Once again all this squirting business seems so esoteric in light of America’s lack of pleasure skills. Especially when it comes to the basic act of women enjoying repeated experiences of orgasm either alone or with a partner. I believe the number of pre-orgasmic women far exceeds our speculations. And now they have to learn how to ejaculate. EGADS

Just last night, a 68 year old woman was being pleasured by Eric and me while her husband watched. Her pelvic floor muscles were fairly weak and she’d had a hysterectomy where the doctors cut through everything like men clear a rain forest. After two hours of clitoral and vaginal stimulation that included many different combinations, she pushed out and squirted. What? I’m not sure, but I’m sure she had a great time with or without having an orgasm.

Love you, BADly

From: Dr. Susan Block
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:16 AM
To: Betty Dodson
Subject: Re: Squirting Continued

Hey BAD Betty,

Funny, you mention tears. Because at times, that's what the ejaculate tastes like to me: tears. Delicious! Though not as salty. Actually, I mention that during the Squirt Salon, just after one of Annie's more powerful geysers rains all over my face.

As Deborah and I also discuss during the salon, many women feel an urge to pee before, after and sometimes during sex. Most of us either hold it in or go to the toilet. Usually we're too excited about getting back into bed to really look at or smell, let alone taste (!) whatever we expelled into the bowl. But I believe that sometimes, we are "squirting." That is, the liquid that we expell at these moments is just as pee-free as what we call female ejaculate.

When I asked Dr. Perry about the chemical content of female ejaculate, he suggested that I help to conduct some "quality scientific analysis" of the stuff. I said I'd be glad to, though I'd need some help getting my studio up to laboratory standards. But when I do, bring on the chemists, catheters and squirting squealing guinea pigs!

Yes, more women (and men) ought to be enjoying more good, old-fashioned, *regular* orgasms. It's Masturbation Month, and it's a good time to practice. So I'm pitching *All Kind Vibrator* these days. Btw, did you see that Leila uses a small vibrating egg to stimulate her clit sometimes while she's squirting? I know another female ejaculatrix, Ivona Diamond, who just squats on her high heels with her knees wide open, and presses her *Mr. Hitachi* (her pet name for her super-size Magic Wand) firmly against her clitoris and labia for a minute or two. Then with a high pitched rebel yell, and no penetration, she squirts out a stream of crystal clear ejaculate. I'm not sure what's happening with her G-Spot, though it could be rising up from inside to meet the vibrator (like Annie's does). But she is definitiely stimulating her clit to make herself squirt. Deborah isn't against clit stimulation, but her method really goes for the G-Spot, and it does work. But I wouldn't dream of ignoring Miss Clitty!

So I'm going to do a page for our SQUIRTING DIALOGUES. I'm not a big fan of VM, and I agree with you that it overemphasizes our holes and horror stories, as opposed to our clits and wits. But I seem to have a thing for spinning off that title. I've already got The Dildo Dialogues based on my oddly successful prosecution of my lawsuit against the LAPD. And now here's The Squirting Dialogues. I'll have it up in a few days or so, and send you a link.

wet love, good vibes,

From: Betty Dodson
To: Dr. Susan Block
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: Squirting Continued

Hey Suzy,

I can't imagine why there hasn't been any serious science based investigation into the chemical content of squirting fluid. It would help to clear up a lot of confusion that continues to roam around in my literal mind. Once that happens, we could stop calling it "female ejaculate" and give it a more appropriate name. You, my darling word wizard get my vote to name the damn stuff. So far, I much prefer "squirting" to ejaculating.

What would it take for you to do this? You got the gals, surely you can find a horny scientist to help you set up an appropriate lab. Clean sheets and a few test tubes? Go for it. The world will love you even more than it already does.

Just got back from Chicago editing my new video Orgasmic Women: 13 Selfloving Divas. I'm working with Marianna Beck and Jack Hafferkamp. Imagine these fab 13 women coming over to my place to show me, the Godmother of Masturbation how they are getting off these days. What a celebration for Masturbation Month and Mother's Day combined. As soon as I have a DVD, I'll send you one.

Love you, BADly

From: Dr. Susan Block Institute
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:25 AM
To: Betty Dodson
Subject: Re: squirting dialogues page up

hey BAD,

Okay, our Squirting Dialogues are up here. I can't bear to make it like a blog with the latest first, because that never fails to confuse my chronological mind. So you'll see the first email first, etc... One day soon, I'm going to put that squirt lab togethe. You're right; it's an embarrassment to the sexological community that this kind of analysis hasn't yet been undertaken. So, from champagne flutes to test tubes, here we go!

chemically yours...
xo Suzy

Deborah Sundahl, the world's foremost expert in FE and one of the stars of our Squirt Salon, wrote in to clarify a few of the chemical questions that Betty and I were a little fuzzy about:

From: Deborah Sundahl
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 10:03 AM
To: Dr. Susan Block Institute
Subject: Squirting Dialogues

Dear Suzy,

I enjoyed your dialogue with Betty Dodson concerning female ejaculation, and wish to comment on some of the information and theories you discussed.

There has been innumerable studies done on the chemical make of female ejauclate. In addition, Dr. Milan Zivaviac, PhD. forensic and histology professor at the University of Bratslavia in Slovakia has studied the female prostate down to its cellular level for the last twenty years. He published a book - a monograph - with all the cellular photos; I think Gary Schubach is selling it on his website. Dr. Zivaviac also disected many, if not hundreds, of prostates, so I believe he probably has the best anatomical picture available at present.

In addition, he has an evolutionary theory, which I mention in my book, Female Ejaculation and the G-spot, centering on the glucose that is contained in female ejaculate. Female ejaculate seeps into the vagina from the prostate in tiny amounts constantly. It gets into the vagina because the vagina and urinery canal share the same wall. This glucose in female ejaculate helps to create a supportive environment for sperm. Our culture believes the vagina is a hostile environment for sperm. Female ejaculate very likely plays a role in reproduction which we hadn't known about. I believe this new information about female ejaculate and its constant emmission needs to be considered in any evolutionary theory of the female orgasm, including our modern view of the vagina as regards reproduction. Therefore, I do not agree that non-ejaculating women ... what was the argument regarding evolution? I didn't understand it. Certainly the fact that 'men like it' is modern; attitude would be a difficult fact to prove for an orgasmic evolutionary theory. . Certainly it protect the vulva and urinery tract from the 'ravages of urine,' which are well known. female ejaculate helps to sooth and minimize this.

As for Dr. Perry's "Beer Theory" to explain the large amounts of female ejaculate, he is basing his theory the one and only scientific study done on this question. (Gary Schubach) One scientific study is not enough, as you mention in the discussion with Betty. In addition, I find Perry's 'Beer Theory' rather offensive - at least its title. I believe the topic deserves better respect and seriousness. Perhaps some mechanism does occur in the bladder to change its content when both men and women are erotically stimulated. But I believe the glands of the female prostate simply manufacture more ejaculate with stimulation. Either way, both theories are speculative until more studies are done.

Meanwhile, pleasure is the primary focus here, as Betty states. I wonder if the clitoris and its anatomy and function was disected and debated to death by sexologists when it first came to popular attention in the 1950's. These debates on where all the female ejaculate comes from are tedious at this point, as they have been going on for two decades now without any studies, save one. Therefore, I believe it's time to focus on teaching women about how to start using this fountainous pleasure they were born with the ability to have, which is my mission in life. In due time the answer about where the large amounts come from will be found out. Meanwhile, there is so much to learn on a practical level, that this lack of information will not and is not hindering women's and couples progress in finding out how to create this elixir of love for themselves in whatever way they wish to experience it.


Thank you, Deborah and Betty, for the stimulating wisdom you have shared here with my readers!

peace through pleasure - wet and dry...
xxxo Suzy



with or without a partner!


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